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Reunion
Interview
Participants: David Epston, Wally
McKenzie, Maryann (13), Bill (father)
David: How do you remember what
happened?
Maryann: And then Wally got me meeting
with Dad. And I got to talk about him, all the questions and
worries I had and it just kind of changed
everything.
David: Do you two remember the document
you signed?
Maryann: Yah.
David: Wally, why do you recall
introducing the UNDERSTANDING?
Wally: My recollection was - tell me if I
remember this rightly - but one of the things was that you
were worried t hat your dad might be angry with you. That
was a worry you had.
Maryann: Yah...yah.
Bill: That's true.
Wally: So I think we talked about that if
you could get some assurance that your dad would really
listen and take you seriously, that would be okay? It think
that's how we got to write up the UNDERSTANDING. And that's
when I met with you and we talked this through and we both
signed it and we talked about how it wasn't a legal thing.
It wasn't a contract rather it was an
UNDERSTANDING.
Bill: That's right.
Wally: With this UNDERSTANDING that you
and I had, we signed a copy and you kept one and I took the
other copy back to Maryann so that she could see that we
were taking this seriously.
Maryann: Yah, that's right.
David: Maryann, why did you trust in the
UNDERSTANDING?
Maryann: I had been to Wally before and
he's really good. So he had helped me out before.
David: Bill, how did you respond to the
idea of entering into this UNDERSTANDING
practice?
Bill: I actually liked the idea because
it gave us both something to really work at and start
looking at where our problems were.
David: Did you think it was over dramatic
in a way?
Bill: No, I don't think it is. It's just
making a new start from this date and saying 'hey our
relationship seems to be foundering somewhere between me and
my daughter because of all sorts of influences and things.
This gives us another start.... where to head for in the
future. I think that's what it did for me. It gave us
something to work on and put the past behind us.
. . . . . . . . .
David: Wally, how do you remember Maryann
in those days?
Wally: I remember talking about the
things we're talking about now....being worried about
whether her dad would be angry or whether he would just go
away from her. You worried about being boring. And I recall
you really wanting to have time to yourself and your
Dad.
. . . . . . . . .
David: How do you think your Dad lived up
to his side of the UNDERSTANDING?
Maryann: He did very good. We've got on
well; we really get on well now. I can tell Dad whatever I
want.
. . . . . . . . .
Bill: I was used to doing all the telling
and she just did the following. And then they get to the
stage where they want to open up and say 'hey, I'm me now
Dad, I'd like you to be like this'.
David: Do you remember your Dad being
different in what he did on that particular day?
Maryann: I remember thinking how serious
he was. I couldn't believe he was taking me seriously. I was
just thinking - 'This is a side of Dad I have never seen
before. I had seen the fun loving side of Dad and the angry
side of Da.d
David: And did you come to appreciate
your father differently?
Maryann: Yah, I did. It made me
appreciate how I can open up Æ to someone and how I could
have a relationship built back up.
. . . . . . . . .
David: Wally, as you were witnessing
this, what did you think was happening?
Wally: I thought there was some amazing
reconnection again. And I thought Bill that was what you had
really wanted all along, but for reasons unknown, that
hadn't been able to happen and you two were drifting further
and further apart. But when we all came together, you two
really put yourselves on the line. You took each other so
seriously. And from thereon, everything happened so quickly
and amazingly.
Bill: It was really. I think it would
have been so hard to generate that ourselves when you are
just meeting on weekends and you are so grateful to see her,
you don't actually want to go into a real deep discussion
that might upset her.
David: Were you kind of holding back on
the relationship?
Bill: I guess I had been concerned for
the relationship for awhile and I was holding back. But I
didn't k now I was.
. . . . . . . . .
David: It this hadn't happened and you
just matured naturally, how much ahead of yourself did you
get by doing what you did?
Maryann: Probably about two years in a
very short space of time.
David: Was that observable to you,
Bill?
Bill: It was; it was. She came right out
of her shell....She just changed. And she was bubbly - 'Hi
Dad, I'm here!'
. . . . . . . . .
Bill: Because at the meeting we had with
Wally, I saw that Maryann had those sort of
feelings.
Maryann: I gained trust in Dad again. I
could actually say something and he would take me so
seriously.
David: How do you think a young boy or
girl your age could lose trust in their father?
Maryann: Their dad would be always
yelling at them and then they get to thinking - 'If I say
anything, h e'll yell at me'. And you think he doesn't want
to know you and all that kind of thing.
. . . . . . . . .
David: Bill, if another father was in
your shoes and he came and said you 'I heard about the state
your father-daughter relationship was in and then you got it
going again'. How would you describe it to him?
Bill: You've got to be prepared to listen
...to be prepared to step back and listen to what your
daughter or son is saying to you. Sure you've got your own
ideas what you want but you've actually got to step back and
listen to them because they are starting to become
individuals.
Wally: Could you say a bit more because I
meet a lot of fathers who believe they are listening when
their children don't.
Bill: He listens but he speaks what he
wants. He sti Åll rules what he wants. For example, they
might sit down and talk but it ....
Maryann: Goes in one ear and out the
other.
Bill: So it's not surprising he just goes
back to what he said and not understand she has got feelings
and may want to do things differently. You know they've got
feelings. They can actually speak what they think. That's
what that meeting did for us. You know your kids aren't
still going to come to you if you don't listen to them. You
actually have to sit down and when they look at you, look at
them in the eye and really listen to what they are saying.
Just forget everything you are doing and listen.
Maryann: I don't want gifts. All I want,
Dad, is your trust in me and listening to me.
Reconciliation
Interview
Participants: Wally
McKenzie, Glen Simblett, Four Sisters aged.....
That's his second wife,
Jenny and she poisoned him against us a lot of the time. But
he said from the very, very beginning that he was going to
look after himself. That he was looking after his own
happiness. So when he went and divorced Mum, he divorced
us.
I suppose for me because
I felt that he did kind of divorce us as well. I was second
in his life and I made more of an effort as far as I
possibly could as a nine year old. I did everything that I
could to try and get that right with him. I failed
tremendously and amazingly but I tried.
It was really, really
hurtful because he knew it was wrong but he didn't do
anything about it. He was really stupid. I told him on his
wedding day that it was the worst day of my life. Even three
or four years ago, I tried so hard to get his attention.
Even last year, I went to the lengths of trying to commit
suicide just to get his attention. It worked for about three
months.
When he got married
again, he locked the door on us.
. . . . . .
I'm not sure why mothers
stick with their kids more than men do. It's maybe cause in
marriages, the fathers rely on the mothers.
Yeah for
emotion.
Yeah for everything. I
don't know, they just give the mother
the responsibility when
they leave. The just think - 'Oh well, it's the mother's
responsibility'.
Fathers give mothers the
responsibility for everything. Looking after . . . picking
up the pieces. . . . loving. They just can't be
bothered.
I wouldn't say every man.
I certainly reckon Dad did. He totally relied on mum for
everything. . . picking up the pieces. . . wiping up the
tears and cleaning up the mess.
I don't know if he relied
on her. He was just oblivious to it and it wasn't his arena
to look after. Or it wasn't his responsibility so maybe if
she does it, that's fine.
Keep the kids quiet when
I come home for my dinner. Keep them out of my hair when I
go and weight train and do everything else. I might tuck
them in bed sometimes and that's it. That's my l
Ñittle bit done. Leave your mother to do the rest.
That's the sort of attitude he's been taking.
Does that way of
fathering kids convince fathers that once they separate form
the mothers, they can just let the mothers get on with it
and drift out of the picture?
I think its a relief for
them. They don't have to have the problem.
It's real selfishness.
It's like - 'Oh Mum's looked after it anyway so I wouldn't
want to tear them away from their mother. I'll just get on
with my own life.
I think that that's what
Dad sort of thought. Who cares you know? They're kids. Leave
them alone. They'll be all right. Little did he know we
needed him so much. He's just recently figured that out and
goes on to say - 'Oh, I never stopped loving you kids' and
all that sort of stuff. I just feel like saying 'Where's the
evidence. Like when did you show that to us? I've forgotten.
I can't remember how Åyou showed your love for
us'.
I remember him giving me
a card for my ninth birthday. The fact that he had made an
effort, I kept that piece of paper for years, just because
he had made an effort and it was just so precious. He had
never ever been a father before he split up with
Mum.
He just changed his
circumstances. Even if he had stayed with Mum, he wouldn't
have been the father that any of us girls needed. He was
never there emotionally. He never talked to us.
What can a father do to
show his son or daughter that he is there?
Maybe put his kids before
weight lifting.
I think caring. Talking.
Asking how our school day was. What did we do. Want to see
the work that we did at school and stuff. Things like that.
Talking about the little things that build up. Being proud
of us. Knowing what we've done and how we've achieved and
being proud of that.
I would usually end up
when I œ talked to him wanting some answers to some
pretty heavy questions like - 'Why aren't you the father
you're supposed to be?
'Why have you failed us?
'Why aren't you interested in us?'And he never ever gives
you a satisfactory answer and it just devastates you
more.
Can I ask you, when do
you think your love for your father died?
When - I don't know the
exact time but every time her hurt me, it was like something
died. Like I tried and I tried to be the daughter that I
thought he wanted me to be. I tried but time and time again,
he hurt me so much.
It was the same with me
though.
For example, the fact
that he wanted to live anything I benefited from like my
university allowance. But that was just building and
building and building up of the many, many, many things he
has done. Sometimes he treated me like a child, sometimes
like an adult. But nothing was fair in any way, shape or
form and I have come to the point that I will not be
devastated any more.
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